AI text to summarize.

[0:01] Hey, everybody. It’s Brad Montgomery.
I missed you.
Difficult questions, To Jessica Petty.
Jessica.

[0:37] AI plus, Yeah, sounds great. I’m going to check and make sure that my camera is doing correct. Yes, yes. Okay, great.
Alright. So, we were talking, I want to talk about JK Rowling as an individual because it you’ve kind of found a smoking gun I didn’t know about, Which.

[1:24] Hey what’s up, And so has Dave Chappelle for talks for saying I should be allowed to say a trans person was formally of a different sex and they currently identified, So I want totalk about if you’re allowed to have those conversations first but or as well can you catch us up on JK Rowling and Y, Like where are you on the whole controversy? She’s pretty unpopularwith a lot of trans people.
Let’s back up just a second. So, there’s a woman called J. K. Rally.
A lot of books mostly you might be familiar with the Harry Potter series. No, no, no, no.
All of those books outlawed to my children, Yeah I I wanted to back up just in case someday somewhere we get a listener.
And a watcher and they’re like.

[2:39] Of Harry Potter and this was like in the last year that was just like honey you gotta get out of the barn so I bought him the whole series right so I am similar in Star Wars land I haveseen them I enjoy them I have read the Harry Potter books and I have seen the movies I can’t quote things I don’t do spells on people I’m not A super obsessed person but I really, And Ireally also notice.

[3:16] That is far more reading, Could be right like i feel like it brought people back to reading, Intimate relationship with each book this is the first time in my even in my adulthood that Iwould like go at midnight and stand in line for the next books like I experience that, And I also know that there’s like younger people who are like stop talking about Harry Potter already.It’s so old.
Like I am with my genex movie references right like I get that this is like a niche not for everybody. So, okay. So, take care. My kids my kids are in their 20s and it just feel felt like thiswas for them.
Like for them and a little older like oh my gosh.

[4:09] And seeing all these adults reading the I can’t remember the name of it but one of the book books had a blue cover and I’m looking at all these adults it just come out there, So prettymass appeal but yet the author, So currently.

[4:35] What is happening is she has stated Some things that it were interpreted is a transphobic or potentially homophobic so meaning you’re not allowed to transition the, Birth.

[5:05] Blood’s not tell them that you can be trans engaging. That’s a whole.
Oh shit, So she has stated some things and a lot of people who are in the spotlight if they say something they might say that they missed.
Right or that they were speaking out of ignorance and didn’t know what they were saying but they have received education now and are aware what they said was harmful.
Maybe they even apologize, Which is why I have job security. So, And what’s fascinating is that one of the from what I remember and I will shut up in, Is that I remember it being verycontroversial that one of the main characters was perceived as gay in her mind Dumbledore of course was a gay man And people were like.

[6:15] I am house of Slytherin I am totally fine with this so then that was a controversy itself is that people could be, Loyal.

[6:30] What is fascinating to me is that you are cake like she’s writing characters that have rich histories that are deemed irrelevant Like someone sexuality whether or not there areprincipal of a school.
Or where their loyalty is actually lie may also be so loyal that they look like they’re a bad guy because they’re actually a mole for being a good guy so that your, These complicated peopleare characters of the book, But none of that seems to actually transpose onto humans who have sexual orientation or sexual identity different than heterosexual, But the word we would useis cisgender because sis is a Latin prefix that means congruent. So, you have to be raised and identify want to have a sense of agency or an adult. As the same thing, there are no otheroptions.
Stop it.
Just a we fly over some of these vocabulary and I I’m I’m there almost.
TV we grew up with.

[7:52] Not that.

[8:04] When you are straight gay lesbian bisexual that would be your sexual orientation or your identity, When you are masculine or feminine or androgenous or non binary or trans thatwould be your gender which is usually, Wrapped up in gender roles, Governor DeSantis has decided as the act of having sex in this case we mean, Biological bits and pieces or giblets as Ilike to refer to them is sex. So, if someone’s, If someone is cispender like both of us we both identify it’s just gender people, Then that means our internal and external physical bodies,Actually, And the level of masculinity or femininity that we have would be our gender.
But are sex.

[9:30] So can I be sis, Huh. You sure can. Oh. Alright.
I stopped you because, I’m wearing cute overalls. I was trying so hard not to be intimidating. Look how beautiful I look. This language is so easy to use. So, you’re describing this heavystuff with JK Rowling and I got stuck on the on the vocabulary. So, I kind of feel like they’re interrupted you.
Right?

[10:26] Where J. K. Rowling and then now the New York Times doubling down.
Oh, they’ve said like, we’re standing behind this.
I only saw red one so shame on me, To the there are more articles like that it’s pretty I’m very surprised that honestly for no other reason now this is going to be a controversial thing to sayI am very surprised that the New York Times, Didn’t, It’s leadership. Protecting its journalist, I think is its job? Like I’m fine with that. But that because we’re so fragile around beingcancelled.
I think a lot of institutions and people and famous people don’t actually just Name what their core values are and so then they get challenged and they immediately like falt, And so what ishappening is that it appears that the New York Times is saying one of their values.

[11:46] What? I didn’t read that. The article. I read.
This is how we feel but it is what readers are interpreting by standing behind the journalist.

[12:13] But the article I read said hey we went to some of her statements and it doesn’t seem as bad as as, She kind of caught, Hey Facebook, So, this is where I think, The article that you’rereferencing of like, look, this is this isn’t warranting the biggest backlash.
With J. K. Rowling and now the entire newspaper is transphobic and everybody should cancel their subscriptions.
I think that’s a little much.

[13:18] And even if it just believes in, Protecting its journalists for having opinions under verse things that would be fine but it’s not doing that and it’s down playing what readers are sayingis transfer, That’s just not that’s not helping. That’s that’s trying to make the problem go away.

[13:41] I suspect you know what that the trans community is freaking out about this. The about the New York Times and I didn’t know that.
So I wouldn’t say that just the trans community I would say kind of like, Yeah liberals who are trying to do all the right things all the time so that they don’t look bad Also have not reallyidentified what they do or don’t believe in and so a lot of like I’m going to make some liberal people very upset but a lot of liberal people that I have talked to think if they cancel Theydon’t they’re not consciously saying this but it’s annoying to me because it’s in the same Buffet line of thoughts is that if they cancel their New York Times subscription.

[14:29] But who you subscribe to does not cure you from transphobia you have to actually do work, When you are or not being transphobic there’s nothing to do with newspapersubscriptions, A lot of times we take and i talked about this this summer around cancel culture we take these very easy, Of like we’re never going to eat at this place again or we’re nevergoing to do this. We’re going to cancel our subscription because it will absolve us from a problem instead of just addressing that this problem is part of our lives.
I get that.

[15:15] I don’t think so because i don’t know that most people can identify I don’t know that people actually ironically.

[15:27] People actually know what journalism is anymore.

[15:33] On an iPad at in the opinion pieces in big work not as low work big word it says opinion at the top of all of their opinion pieces yeah pretty hard to miss, I think that it’s very hard todiscern between clickbait, I think it looks like somebody wrote this and then that the the, Yeah, I get that. Hi, the person who did the writing and then now, people have their hair on fire.Well, I think what happened with me personally, my friend.
I love Harry Potter. I mean, like, it’s such a big part of our family, Lore.
And then JK Rowling is in trouble and then I see this headline or article that says maybe JK Rowling is not in such big trouble and I was attracted to that because I don’t want to because Ilike Hermione.
Come on Ron these are my guys, Well I think that like there’s a term called confirmation bias. Yeah. And you can use it in a lot of different context but, You want to like J. K. Rowling. So,you’re going to try and find something that says, see, I can like her. This is good. So, when I gave you a new Easter egg about taking it out You were like.

[16:59] That if you are if I’m looking for confirmation bias that this woman is problematic.
Then i’m going to write another story about this new thing that I located and if I really want to like her then you’re going to find confirmation bias of reasons for like her what I would liketo point out I believe that we are intellectually cap, Of loving Hermione, That’s a whole another podcast because like that’s like can you love the art and not the artist, I can’t handle i grewup with Bill Cosby.

[17:41] I mean, Stand up specifically would not be what it is today without his work. The work that he did on records and actually being able to mass produce comedy that people couldthen use outside of bar.
Would not be the same without him.

[18:04] Take part in seems back to JK come from my nation by so you set me this Wikipedia article on Robert, Go brace heatham. I read it again before we came on.
Yeah, okay. So, this is the problem, right? So, Brad, you message me and said, hey, can we talk about this? And I was like, oh my god, I’d love to that be great.
So then that night or maybe the next day I am in a TikTok hole like everybody is I know these days because I’ve been I’m writing a new book and I need to like dental floss my brain sothat I can go to sleep, I’m watching TikTok and there’s a TikTok that says I understand that we’re worried about J. K. Rowling being transformed, Here’s a fun fact that I really think weneed to be talking about that we’re not talking about, So I just want to point out that I learned about this on TikTok.
I googled it. Mm hmm. And read my own research to find out if this factoid was correct and it seems to be correct from what I was able to find. I didn’t just trust a TikTok and likeLimeyer on fire I did some research and took some peptobismol.
And now here we are.

[19:30] Yes. Yeah, I did like the actual.

[19:43] Yeah so it turns out the JK Rowling Also published works of art under, We can have a whole conversation about why a woman would have to pick a man’s name as a pen name.
No heat. So, Robert Gilbrey is a, Based on the writing of the books and you can like actually kind of reverse identify who the authors is.
She also has said yes that is her name. That is important because I also wanted to see did she say yes to this? So, she’s like, yes, that’s my pin name and no, I didn’t know the history of thepinning.
Well, it turns out that just by random coincidence.

[20:50] So

[21:00] For example gay people and work on them and fix them and make them not gate, Through electronic shocks. Yeah. Yes. So, a conversion therapy has been deemed illegal in mostplaces because it is actually torture.
And a whole another podcast we can talk about like elder gay people who have survived conversion therapy and now are terrified to get any kind of medical care because they have PTSDFor medical treatment from conversion therapy in their childhoods that of all the men’s names in the whole universe that’s the name that she picked, So, is she homophobic? Is shetransphobic? Is she, All of these things are possible and you can still like her Miami, Part, Maybe I’m trying to climb my way so I don’t get into it.

[22:11] Sure?
I mean technically I wouldn’t call it a middle name I’d call it like the first part of a hyphenated last name but sure.

[22:39] Alright. Well, I think another one’s had been hibernated but I think it’s a dump last name. I think i don’t know. I did not research that but I would have to do that research before Ideclare, That is what I’m suggesting.
Yeah so that.

[23:06] Wave do this with money whether we’re talking about political ideology voting or what we just we’re supposed to protest in March with our dollars and our time Yeah. And a lot ofus have spent a lot of time with these books.
And there’s a lot of money being made off of the Harry Potter enterprise, And so then is that time and money investment supporting transphobia and or potentially homophobia is now thepredicament that people are in.
I’m, She didn’t she’s she picked Robert Galbrace but a lot of these articles are titled Doctor Heath you know RG Heath, He’s a prominent name in this guy’s world.
Sure. And she left that off.

[24:14] Right.
Yes, maybe that was some thought process. Maybe there was oh thought process and I think there’s actually an article that interviews her and she’s like, I just picked some random name.Yeah. So, let’s close, And her first dog’s name. Right. Like.
Okay, okay. That sounds fine. So, then, Mass murder and he went no they just, It’s the first.

[25:03] It could be intentional.
Now that it is noon.

[25:14] I don’t want to be associated with that guy. I picked the wrong name dang it.
Because she’s already dismissing charge number one and so now she’s dismissing charge number two and if confirmation bias is like see these things really are just like weird happensdances like, A mountain out of a mow hill.
If you’re doing the confirmation bias of this woman should be blasted off the planet then this was not good news.
I don’t know if it’s related, And this this is the oldest she is the one that is most Harry Potter crazy, And could not wait to take us to the cemetery that has all these tombstones, Whichapparently JK Rowling picked names of them because they’re i can’t remember, All of the care. I can’t remember any of the characters but definitely a potter is there and there’s a wholebunch of characters where you see them on the gravestone. You’re like, oh, So that portion of me just wants to believe that it’s random.
But yeah, this is pretty damning and having her not come out and say.

[26:33] That seems like a problem.
Like I have friends that live in a older house in Saint Paul and it has the original tile in the mudroom between the front door and the door that gets into the house and on the original tile areall of these swatch took us, That’s awful.
The original swatch the coat was a Buddhist, Co opted.

[27:14] Genocide in in the entire world, right?
So, I think we can say co opted misappropriated, right? So, now, in 2023, when you walk in the door, you have to like walk over like a whole bunch of squatch because to get into theirhouse, It comes with an explanation, right? Is that like his let me tell you that year of the house was built. Right. These are the original tiles.
And then we had this whole conversation like do they immediately buy like a rug, Or is it original to that? It’s original to the house. Where are the people? Nazis. No. Actually, it wasbuilt.
More than likely by a Buddhist practicing family.
Right one would think accepted to original to the house and everything else to explain that to your, My point is is that things can evolve and change.

[28:28] You’re so fun. Let me, can we, I want to, I want to step back from this, we’re in the trees with one individual, J. K. Rowley.
But I want to back up a little bit, Like like in the best way to hear this I think it would be like this there is a difference between somebody who is born a man versus somebody who nowidentifies as a man, And I think that’s what Dave Chappelle and that did not go over well. So, What’s wrong with that concept, So I I don’t necessarily think that people are going to getlike wildly in trouble for saying these things. If they were saying them at face value without any other, Historical context. Right? So, I think that’s an important thing to state. Now, what Imean by that is, Because so many people do not have good, clean, intentions.

[29:50] Or feeling entitled, So

[30:15] You just run with who I am now, Right? Yeah. But that’s great and then if I were to identify as something that you didn’t know, you might be like, wait, alright, timeout.
Yeah, we gotta back up. What? Because you thought you knew stuff and i just informed you that you don’t know everything. But now, And so the idea is is that if you’re not going to askevery human being this information, Then, why are you only asking it and honestly, you’re asking it because it’s novel.
Because you’re not familiar with it. It makes that person very different.

[31:01] They were assigned at being so don’t want to be different for you they’re very aware, So then it’s for them and not for your consumption that’s the that’s the tricky line, We’re hearingso they grow a key as context and history, So we’ll throw myself under the bus for a second. So there’s our old dog sitter. Our old dog sitter.
Friend they all came to visit and I couldn’t remember the friends name and I think this was the first time I’d met the friend maybe it was the second time I’d met the friend I don’t rememberAnd, The person is.

[31:52] It doesn’t even matter but I don’t know, And I’m going to be really honest again I can’t remember which one’s right and which one is wrong so I either said Cameron or I saidCarmen, I think i said Carmen and their name is Cameron i can’t remember.
Because I had misgendered them at the table.

[32:29] Sorry I was like just mispronounced it because one of them is a masculine name one on the feminine, I I wasn’t in in my universe i was not thinking I need to say the girl name or Ineed to say the boy name I just missed pronounced the person’s name because I couldn’t remember it. That is what I said.
This story is fantastic because it would put me in applicant fit to be in that situation so I can’t wait to see how you handled it, Yeah well just because I’m good at this doesn’t mean Ihandled it well so then the person was like oh my gosh I can’t believe you of all people just misgendered me and I was like whoa what I’m sorry And they were like, you just called mewhichever name I said and obviously, I must have been Carmen because they said, obviously, that’s a girl’s name. My name is this.
And however it is they actually pronounce because I don’t think it was Cameron, Whatever name it was I still don’t know if this person identifies as more masculine or more feminine nonbinary and drug I don’t know how the person identifies and even now years later it’s still bothering me and I can’t remember what the person’s, And in the moment I screwed up.

[33:50] It doesn’t matter that i was just mispronouncing the name or misremembering the name because I don’t even know, What the gender is to know that I made a mistake. That makessense? Doesn’t matter to them. I misgender them and so then immediately I say Oh my gosh I’m very sorry for using the wrong name I did not say from his pronouncing your name I saidusing the wrong name I don’t even know what I actually said, To take responsibility for it is they heard me using the wrong name that then meant that I was misgendering them and my jobis to take responsibility for messing up. So I said I am sorry, Now, here we are 47 years later. My job Is to know this person’s name and I still don’t know this person’s name.
But if we ever do have to go to dinner with them yet please, Not to mention that names are fluid and by the time we were to go to dinner together they may have a completely differentname.

[34:59] That thing happens, Right so a person comes in there and dredge it and so you don’t know their name or their sex that you guessed wrong and you’ve misgendered them.
So now if I knew I was going to go out to dinner with them I would say and because I specifically know one ice screwed this up and two, I went on Facebook and didn’t find my answers. Iwould ask, I can’t wait to go to dinner tomorrow.
Before we meet up can you remind me what name and pronounce you are using and I probably do that to the dog sitter and then ask for any guests that are joining dinner And then my jobis to memorize that information, And then luckily I got a wing man so I’d be like Lauren names pronouns got it on it and then In theory if we’re doing this an i screw up again, Becausethen, He’s fixing me and being an ally to the person that I screwed up.
It.
I’m changing rules of the story.

[36:26] Name or pronounce, Right now. So then in real time, you would just say hi, I’m Jess. I use feminine or she her pronouns. What’s your name? What pronouns do you use?
Proactively.
Well and also you notice I said my name and my pronouns because then People who are not.

[37:04] So then that’s why like someone like me having it in my signature or at the bottom of my zoom screen or something is I’m normalizing the one what is a pronoun And two, whichones I prefer to use so then everybody gets to share that information, not just the person people can’t guess correctly.
My head exploded just a tiny bit.
Back up let’s do it again.

[37:40] Okay there there’s something going on here it might be gender or identity or I don’t know what’s happening and I I think I would panic a little bit like I don’t want to hurt I don’twant to do anything that would be painful or hurtful, But I I didn’t consider that the way to, Out of this is to proactively say unread I go by he and him, What’s your name and what areyour pronouns?

[38:08] Totally cool but this is a perfect example of like what all I work is right? So the reason why your head likely exploded is that people probably guess.
Correctly you use masculine pronouns I’m going to go with always.
Right? So then you’ve never had to explain something that other people figure out.
Right? Has the beginning of this before we hit record, you shared with me that your daughter is a vegetarian, your wife is a pescatarian, and what was the word you used for you? I’m areduced Italian, which means I’m reducing my, I eat fewer animals.
And that’s better for the planet is to pay attention and eat less meat I’d never even heard of that word before. So, you got a new word to me. I love it.
That’s great. So, you got to share what you are. You also shared information about your wife and your daughter. So, then, I can like file that away, So then let’s say for some reason you’rein the middle of nowhere and you’re at my house and I’m about to make you dinner somewhere in my head might be an alarm of like you need to ask them if they eat meat because they’reI remember somebody doesn’t, Yeah.

[39:24] Yes, it does. Because i could also, if I have to cook for someone is just ask, are there any dietary restrictions I need to know about?
And then it gives you an opportunity and anyone I’m going to cook for to tell me what the dietary restrictions. Alright, I I got that one.
We never ask this information because we don’t have to because people where used to people guessing right?
Until we run into a Cameron Carmen situation and then we’re like wow What’s going on over here? And then we feel oh good about ourselves because we remember to ask that Person, Sothe idea is just to allow, Not everyone knows everyone’s pronouns so just provide that space especially as someone who never Is guest wrong because it doesn’t cost us anything to say I’mdressed I use she her pronouns, What movie we should stop it up like so let’s say I I show up at your house.

[40:46] You could, Hey I’m just, Him he and his, A near a greater ally to that person, Let me feel crap.
Yeah I feel like, Feel like I’m trying and I’m I’m honestly, if you ask me generally, how are you doing on social culture issues? I’d say like I am very hip.
I am very modern. I’m very great at this and then I talk to you and I just feel.

[41:38] Oh, here here’s why that is probably accurate and you should also give yourself a break, right? Is it none of this is new?
And it seems new.
Like it is not new and it seems new and so like bringing it into your level of consciousness.
Is like a new activity. So, I didn’t know what to reduce itarian was.
Oh, but an interesting concept. No, I don’t want to reduce nothing.
But i didn’t know what the word was. Now, I know what it is. Now, I can form an opinion about it.
Okay great I’m very it’s just not loaded like, Gender or sexuality or or or.

[42:24] Gender and sexuality in a way that we haven’t pulled a size eating. Although, if you want to ask a vegan, they also say they’re great.
So that we can politicize anything as proven in our society and, Very few things have been politicized as heavily as sex gender And sexuality.
And largely then it’s a different workshop but that’s about like heteronormativity and like what’s expected and what’s not expected in Weather the vendigram works with religion or doesn’twork with religion which what we really mean is protestant or Catholic, Christianity, right? Like, that is a whole different workshop. So, what.

[43:09] Because you have purposely become aware of something that you didn’t know about.
Well, great. I mean, I do, I understand. This is not new.
But also I remember the day I was made aware of some of these, Hey Facebook.

[43:49] I can walk around, Or like there are now flags that mean different things and I am very invested in the old flags right and so then I have to be like what does this mean what’s goingon I’m not new.
To this information I’m new to the current information because I am my grandparents.
Like, I, I, in my, in here, I will forever be perpetually 20 unless you listen to me, get up out of a chair, then all of a sudden I become an old.
Hey.

[44:36] Right? So like the example that I use all the time is that when I had a real job.
I was in charge of the copy machine of the fax machine of something went wrong, At fax machines.
And so now I have a I have three remote controls and when I can’t get them to work we’re like we’re going to read a book. I don’t know what’s going on. I can’t find it.
I just give up, Dog sitter that we would have who’s like a college student we don’t know anything. I feel cool. I have a television man to mounted to the wall.
Go Kelly, See if I get this. So, here’s Rich Hopkins. I’m going to read it for you because lots of most of the most of our listeners are listening audio only. Discussions with my daughterswho are all LGBTQ, And my son who’s straight but part of today’s culture of understanding oh dang it anyway.

[46:01] Or a little bit gap and it’s just a spectrum of how much, Or any lack of sensitivity to this question is ignorantly intentional?
Oh, I get it. Sorry. We we got it right. And you’re asking the right person because just as great at this.
So as a reminder because I said this at the beginning.

[46:38] So if we’re playing shapes let’s also think of just a basic bell curve, So there little are on the ins and bigger in the middle. So, But that everything has extremes.
So then if we take, Retake, And hyper monosexuality would be, Same thing goes with masculinity, femininity, so then, If that’s the case, Finn and I, I’m going to make people’s headsexplode but there’s like a lot of research that shows that There are all different kinds of interests and forms of expression and desire.

[47:52] Yeah that makes total sense to me that we’re on a spectrum some people are going to be, Right, I mean, like, can if I can, I think you and I are an excellent example. You identify asa cisgender man. I identify as a woman.
Whether it’s my communication style or my general energy or something like I’m pretty masculine, Archit.
I mean when communication there’s masculine and feminine communication that has nothing to do with gender or sex but the idea is is like being like listening or being passive is referredto as feminine communication Cuz that tells sexism works and the being like.

[49:03] That doesn’t make you a woman and it doesn’t make you gay. It does make you someone who has more feminine communication patterns than I do.
Back to Rich’s question I think the part that is interesting to me in which I’m right with you his last the last thing he said was, Any lack of sensitivity in this question is ignorantlyunintentional, It seems like, Yeah. Well and it speaks to like.

[49:50] And if you say things wrong suddenly everyone’s cancelling their New York Times subscription.
Rich says thanks, Thanks I wish I’d been willing to discuss this and understand it 10 years ago I’m with you buddy, Just a, Mark mostly just.

[50:29] Jessica is like you know legal documents and Jess is what I prefer, You didn’t know. It always comes down to asking, right? It always comes down to asking.
Bit allowing yourself to be curious. This is what I find so funny. I would not have a job security.
Hey people just listen to the illogic motion, So then if you don’t know you now know you can ask a question, But we feel entitled to know things because now we are aware, But what Iwould remind people is is that there are some things you don’t know and it’s not socially acceptable to ask of anyone, So, don’t treat people differently, right? Like, There’s so much, Thatreminds me of something.

[51:45] Yeah, this is what I think. Rich and anybody else listening?
I think what you need to do is give us topics and then Brad and I can hash them out and talk about what we think maybe we’ll even discreet with each other. That’d be very exciting. Oh, Ican’t.
I know, let’s do it. Let’s like schedule a bunch of these and then pick some different topics and figure out what people are interested or intrigued in, Yeah I think I think we’re a good matchfor each other because, I’m opening open the learning but I I also feel a little, I feel like a white 57 year old guy in the suburbs.
But you are a white 57 year old guy in the suburbs who’s willing to have the conversation about stuff that you don’t know, That’s a pretty big difference.
Alright, Those of you who are on Spotify and Apple and, Whatever.

[53:01] You’re a rainbow with donuts.
I don’t know what that means but it sounds very complimentary. I’ll take in it as a compliment.

[53:17] I think we’ll be able to get to almost everything if we do those things.